Curse

The Josip · Dec 23, 2009, 11:13 AM // 11:13

I would be shocked if anyone uses any of the FC skills in PvE. Of the few mesmers we even have in PvE.

(I know that some of the skills look like they could be fun, but they are not good.)

Actually, to be honest, entire class needs a serious buff, much like the one Rt spirits got. Mesmer was always weak in PvE, and ever since Prophecies it got weaker and weaker because of PvP-related nerfs. Now PvE and PvP skills are split, so there's no reason why Mesmers would not have some fun in PvE. It's about time.

upier · Dec 23, 2009, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Might I suggest being more specific?

Chocobo1 · Dec 23, 2009, 11:55 AM // 11:55

My mes is alright in PvE. I use some Echo Esurge + Ether Nightmare and CoP to just deal massive armor ignoring damage. I'd like the recharge reduced on Esurge and a few other skills, but just PvE only. It would be nice if there was more aoe rupts or something to make interupting in PvE semi useful.

dr love · Dec 23, 2009, 12:00 PM // 12:00

mesmer is a caster, whats there to worry about? just load up on ele and pve-only skills.

Evil_Necro · Dec 23, 2009, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Make mesmer more pve useable and re work tactic/hammer then I'll be back full time :P

upier · Dec 23, 2009, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

My mes is alright in PvE. I use some Echo Esurge + Ether Nightmare and CoP to just deal massive armor ignoring damage. I'd like the recharge reduced on Esurge and a few other skills, but just PvE only.

See, and this is exactly why I suggested being more specific.

What needs to see a change are traits that make the mesmer a unique playing experience. If that will not be looked at, then any change just doesn't make sense.
You are already able to win PvE as a chaos nuker.

UnChosen · Dec 23, 2009, 12:13 PM // 12:13

I kinda don't want to make a suggestion because I don't want this thread to turn into another thread for the suggestion forum, where it becomes entirely unnoticed while all the SF whining threads with no clue of the core problem and offer absolutely no constructive suggestions stays....oh well, might as well offer something before the thread gets moved.

I would just say that interrupting skills should be made NOT timing dependent in PvE due to how fast monster skills cast and recharge. They all should function similar to the skills shame and guilt and diversion. Either that or the mesmer skills should be reworked so that they have less effect but more spammable and allow the mesmer to have a more sustained DPS.

Xsiriss · Dec 23, 2009, 12:18 PM // 12:18

God what's with the conservative,narrow midned people. Mesmers suck in PvE beyond a few,fairly gimmicky at that builds. Therefore things definitely need to be changed to make them more flexible.

AlsPals · Dec 23, 2009, 12:33 PM // 12:33

They are a narrow class, and the fact that you have to(not may, have to) use the PVE skills to feel less like your just staring at your heroes doing all the killing, it really says something. Either way, am I the only one who hasnt bothered to log in since the last "skill update"?

zwei2stein · Dec 23, 2009, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Therefore things definitely need to be changed to make them more flexible.

No kidding, but how do you do that?

Mesmers lack party support or deep synergy of their sister class: Necromancer. They do not scale well, and do not work well with party.

The only skill they currently can bring to party to synergize with rest is Fragility because:

Reactice hexing sucks. You depend on mod to kill itself
Degen sucks. It is capped damage that costs too much.
Interupts suck. 1s cast skills are 1/4 on hm bosses, why?
Selfish defence mantras suck too.

And that covers pretty much all of mesmer abilities.

They only have limited direct damage, and this are so bad in DD department that arcane echoing energy surge is considered good.

PvE is basically won by:
Direct Damage.
Amplifying party members direct damage.
KDlocking currently killed mob.
Laying defence layers on party.

Mesmers do not do much of any of that.

dr love · Dec 23, 2009, 01:14 PM // 13:14

let's be honest, most classes are terrible for HM general play unless you rely on a secondary profession and pve only skills:

if u only use the skills from primary, almost all classes look like shite
war - defy pain tank? not my cup of tea. apply deep wound to one target? who cares
rang - traps? slow as arse. bow attacks? lol. beast mastery? good luck
mes - hex, degen or rupt 1 target? blows
monk - can pump heals or prots, but heroes and hench play terrible if you play as backline. you can play a rezbot (UA) or ROJ. how exciting.
derv - woo scythe attacks and pbaoe dmg! not.
para - 1 build and it relies heavily on pve skills
sin - sux nuts without SF, or AP caller capabilities

rit - excellent as we know
ele - good array of nukes
necro - MM or discord is decent

mesmer can do many things if you don't limit yourself to having to "play like a mesmer should":
600/smite for farming or running dungeons, FC ele nuker, AP caller for VQing, AP sin spam for VQing, spirit spammer for farming, FC MM, VoR deepfreeze spiker in DoA/Deep/Urgoz, FC ROJ for VSF, FC MoP for FoW, me/a perma using candies for UW, the list goes on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

PvE is basically won by:
Direct Damage.

FC nukes for a cleaner spike, VoR, CoP (used to be meta, still strong)

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Amplifying party members direct damage.

FC ebon standard, weaken armor, MoP

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

KDlocking currently killed mob.

FC meteor shower, meteor, deepfreeze

Steps_Descending · Dec 23, 2009, 01:17 PM // 13:17

First off, shouldn't that be moved to teh campfire?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I would be shocked if anyone uses any of the FC skills in PvE. Of the few mesmers we even have in PvE.

Technically I know I use Mantra of Recovery and POwer return, but... I'll admit we could use a buff or a tweak to make us unique as upier said.

That's worth an edit :

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr love

let's be honest, most classes are terrible for HM general play unless you rely on a secondary profession and pve only skills:

if u only use the skills from primary, almost all classes look like shite
war - defy pain tank? not my cup of tea. apply deep wound to one target? who cares

HB/MoP? Wirling attack if you,re not affraid of a pve skill that not broken? SplinterWep/aoe axe?

Quote:

rang - traps? slow as arse. bow attacks? lol. beast mastery? good luck

Actually Bow attacks cna hold their own with conjure/ brutal weapon. Plus D-shot who can be useful for shutdown and spike

Quote:

monk - can pump heals or prots, but heroes and hench play terrible if you play as backline. you can play a rezbot (UA) or ROJ. how exciting.

well you said it yourself : RoJ smite

Quote:

derv - woo scythe attacks and pbaoe dmg! not.

wasn't there a couple of good attack chains for derv. Beside conjure/3x.25sec activatin attack

Quote:

ele - good array of nukes

Elem nuker in HM? ind if I ask what kind?

Kasai · Dec 23, 2009, 01:36 PM // 13:36

In response to the original post (I think we've all gone off on a tangent now) fast casting is rather useless, skill wise. Mantra of Recovery isn't bad, and Symbols of Inspiration is a lot of fun (but completely useless). The Fast Casting effect can sometimes be useful, but you need to be specific with your build in order to get the full effect. You barely even notice the effect on 1s spells. For a comparison, look at other professions primary attributes.

- Soul Reaping? Awesome, almost limitless energy, pretty OP in PvE but fairly balanced in PvP. Also, skills such as Signet of Lost Souls rarely leave my bar.
- Strength? Pretty awesome. Strength's effect isn't mind blowingly imba but the skills are plentiful and powerful.
- Energy Storage? The ele would be dead without it. Also, Aura of Resto, GoLE are extremely useful.
- Expertise? Brilliant. Allows a great amount of synergy with secondary profession attack skills. The attribute also homes such great skills as lightning reflexes and dshot.

What am I getting at?

Fast Casting is useful at times, but comparing to other professions primaries, looking especially at the skills, it seems awfully stale.

dr love · Dec 23, 2009, 01:39 PM // 13:39

the OP sounds like he doesn't like using pve skills or skills from other classes because he wants to play a "mesmer". the days of prophecies are over. the days of overpowered gimmicks using pve skills reign.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

HB/MoP? Wirling attack if you,re not affraid of a pve skill that not broken? SplinterWep/aoe axe?
Actually Bow attacks cna hold their own with conjure/ brutal weapon. Plus D-shot who can be useful for shutdown and spike
well you said it yourself : RoJ smite
wasn't there a couple of good attack chains for derv. Beside conjure/3x.25sec activatin attack

i see pve skills and skills from other professions in all of those examples. and as much as people love RoJ, it really is subpar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Elem nuker in HM? ind if I ask what kind?

weaken armor and you're set

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasai

For a comparison, look at other professions primary attributes.
- Strength? Pretty awesome. Strength's effect isn't mind blowingly imba but the skills are plentiful and powerful.

what skills are that great for pve? defy pain? SF sins, obby flesh eles, 600 monks, VoS dervs, 600 mesmers, 330 rits, are all much better tanks for group play

what about divine favour? pretty weak for pve
mysticism? unless you're an enchant spammer, its not amazing
leadership? good skills in it, but paragons are forced to put points into it to maintain their energy
critical strikes? +1% chance per point
spawning power? it was buffed but still does not excite me. only good for spirit spammer
expertise? its just their so rangers can use the e-costly skills of their own class.

i'd take fast casting on my monk or ele if i could choose their primary attribute.

you are right about soul reaping however, it's amazing.

but really, caster classes and anything that can maintain SF are the meta atm in group play. mesmers definitely have a spot. warriors, dervs, paras, rangers are all in far worse shape than mesmers.

caster spikes are much faster than 'manlyway' (see FoW record, DoA record). its nice that the pug meta for FoW is manlyway, but its slower, harder and more risky than using caster spike.

Schnellburg · Dec 23, 2009, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Fast Casting is a great attribute line. The skills may suck, but guess what? Each class has its own Pros/Cons. Mesmer are made to interrupt/shutdown enemy casters, and apply degen/punish enemies to doing actions.

Try casting VoR on a target and watch it explode, or Backfire on a caster and watch the numbers fly.

Mesmers are 1 of the most versatile classes in the game to be honest. And honestly outside of maybe an Ele, what profession really uses skills from it Primary attribute?

Shadowspawn X · Dec 23, 2009, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schnellburg

Fast Casting is a great attribute line.

Fast casting is horrible and completely worthless in HM. Then on top of that the other classes get it with a HCT mod on a 40/40 set so its not even unique. Then long cast times like 3 sec backfire negates it completely. FC is BS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schnellburg

Try casting VoR on a target and watch it explode,

VoR doesn't do anything, you are lucky if it even triggers once before the rest of the party kills the mob.

Reformed · Dec 23, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Mindbender: For 10...15 seconds you have 15 Fast Casting.

Why pay for the cow when the milk is free?

asb · Dec 23, 2009, 02:52 PM // 14:52

My first class was a Mesmer and through the first half of Prophecies it was a blast playing it. But as monsters grew stronger, and their attacks more powerful, most Mesmer skills became less and less important to the outcome of a battle. The real strength is to disrupt enemy team play over a period of time(pressure play), which is next to non existent in PvE. Either you spike the mob, or the mob spikes you. The core issue is of course human against artificial intelligence, but this problem can't be addresses anymore because of GWs dwindling support. Buffing degeneration skills to target additional foes as the attribute level increases would be a possible way to increase the effectiveness of these pressure skills in spike gameplay with minimal (coding)effort. Interrupting, well, it works, in normal mode, but it is far less important than dealing damage or preventing it. It's probably a good idea to interrupt some high profile spells such as "Argo's Cry", but with PvE-only skills like ymlad, any class can take over that job. If you need to shutdown a specific foe completely in PvE, you're better of knock-locking or dazing/snaring it. After 3 seconds, everything is dead anyway. Oh, and although human interrupt Mesmers can target smartly, they suffer from an additional natural disadvantage to their artificial likenesses, namely reflexes. To counter these problems, again with minimal coding effort, one could add a mechanic that allows Mesmers to focus on their target, slowing down its casting time by staring at them(targeting them) if being in aggro range. The target would be getting notified by a visible effect like you get with "Tengu's Gaze". The longer the Mesmer focuses on its target, the slower the target skill/spell activation time gets. This, coupled with other activation time decreasing skills like Arcane Conundrum or Migrane could give Mesmers a strong tool to take out specific classes via interrupts, even in HM. Of course this mechanic needs it limitations, mainly by binding it to the FC attribute.
I'd also like an elite that lets target foes next x spells fail with a chance of y%.

Apart from "Spirit Shackles", the e-denial concept is more or less a paper tiger, both in NM and HM. I can't think of anything but certain skill buffs, mainly recharge time decreases, so I'll shut up now.

zwei2stein · Dec 23, 2009, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr love

let's be honest, most classes are terrible for HM general play unless you rely on a secondary profession and pve only skills:

if u only use the skills from primary, almost all classes look like shite
war - defy pain tank? not my cup of tea. apply deep wound to one target? who cares
rang - traps? slow as arse. bow attacks? lol. beast mastery? good luck
mes - hex, degen or rupt 1 target? blows
monk - can pump heals or prots, but heroes and hench play terrible if you play as backline. you can play a rezbot (UA) or ROJ. how exciting.
derv - woo scythe attacks and pbaoe dmg! not.
para - 1 build and it relies heavily on pve skills
sin - sux nuts without SF, or AP caller capabilities

rit - excellent as we know
ele - good array of nukes
necro - MM or discord is decent

mesmer can do many things if you don't limit yourself to having to "play like a mesmer should":
600/smite for farming or running dungeons, FC ele nuker, AP caller for VQing, AP sin spam for VQing, spirit spammer for farming, FC MM, VoR deepfreeze spiker in DoA/Deep/Urgoz, FC ROJ for VSF, FC MoP for FoW, me/a perma using candies for UW, the list goes on...

FC nukes for a cleaner spike, VoR, CoP (used to be meta, still strong)

FC ebon standard or weaken armor

FC meteor shower, meteor, deepfreeze

1) FC nukes are not reason to bring mesmer, if anything, they are weaker, VOR is like SS, except worse, and SS is, well, not exactly good, CoP is half degen, not really strong anymore.

2) Neither is mesmer skill, neither actually needs to be FCed or benefits.

3) Terrible recharges, costs and casts even with FC, enemies can die before you finish your combo, and you can use it ever seccond/third group.

---

But your post shows you do nto really know strenghts of any classes, or how they are used. Blanket dismissal of physicals (warrior is no1 dps, assassin is no2), claiming that discord on necro is powerfull (no, it is weak sht, only used because as hero build because of how hero ai works) and not mentioning curses at all, or that eles have good array of nukes.

Seriously, eles haveing good array of nukes?

And i fear your claim that Rt are excelent does not encompass splinter weapon.

Only reason caster spikes set record is because they actually had sf tank to ball everything and spank it, aggro half map and few basic nukes will work faster becuase they can actually hit more than one target, making them fairly efficient, take that sf-balling-tanking ability away and see teams strugge for speed. It is no secret that presf tankways were weeeeery slow compared to physicalways.

Lourens · Dec 23, 2009, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Mesmer are just not ment to be for PvE , the only thing they rock at is interupting but most enemies in PvE are allready dead before they get off a skill